That would be an interesting way to solve that problem. But we’re less likely to enter longstanding political debates, such as what the tax rate should be, where a few more voices are unlikely to make much difference. Enjoyed the episode? Robert Wiblin: Yeah, obviously, with intuition as well. I have no idea where to start. Does it mean I should walk by the pond every day on the way to work to make sure I keep people from drowning. Russ Roberts: You’ll have me on again, Rob! Do they really want to admit that it was a terrible mistake to have kids? They’re the subject of public policy issues. Maybe you should go into religion, and you could argue that religion is one way in which kindness has been brought into the world. Robert Wiblin: It is possible that we have a decent guess at what are the best charities within global health and development. Just because, in general, people are bad at doing theoretical reasoning and figuring out whether arguments are right, and especially figuring out whether they translate to the real world. You could say, “Well, I think religion is actually a force for unkindness. The law of unintended consequences is large. I may not even know actually how I can spend time reading to my kid at night knowing that I ought to be doing some consulting work at night raising money and buying more of those bed nets. So let’s say you have a friend who’s an alcoholic and you’ve watched his life fall apart. The term Effective altruism is questionable at best; however, their message does make a lot of sense. So let me take another variant on my problem with this. So here’s the problem. With a sibling or a friend, I might decide to vary my response depending on their relative situation that day. And I think we really want to push very hard on our ability to work together, our moral values, our ability to make sensible decisions, in order to bring them a bit more back into line so that we’re not in such a dangerous situation. When I was 19 years old, 18 years old, I guess 17, some time, I was a freshman in college and I found out I was pretty good at economics so I became an economics major and it ended up pushing me down a road where I became a PhD in economics and look, here I am: a podcaster, I’ve made rap videos, I’ve written novels. You can get better at it through practice. Maybe there’s cases where it’s close to you and you can’t say whether this effect on person A is bigger or smaller than effect on person B. Your religion tells you to, your family, your parents.” We have unmoored a lot of our decisions from those traditional ways of thinking. I wouldn’t know where to start. There’s a fourth way we used to make decisions and it’s out of fashion, which is tradition. But I wonder whether it’s important to distinguish between kind of the philosophical issue here about the nature of wellbeing and subjectivity, and the practical political concern of how will these ideas be abused and what negative policy consequences can they have if people take these numbers too literally rather than using other ways to make decisions about what public policy should be. It’s an experiment about counting. Summary: The term 'effective altuist' invites confusion between 'the right thing to do' and 'the thing that most efficiently promotes welfare.' That all you could ever do is kind of have a best guess at something that might be the most effective within a particular area. They’re the experts they’re really good at it. Russ Roberts: I used to play golf about three times a year. Let’s figure out what’s really going on.” I’d say, “I don’t know where to start.” It’s so hard. That’s called theory. Russ Roberts: I want to mention that there’s a short story called “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas” by Ursula K Le. Russ Roberts: If I have to figure out what the biggest problems facing the world are, that’s an informationally challenging problem, but I get started on that pretty quickly. I think we were raised in families, we evolved in families, we evolved in small groups. And on top of that, I’m especially interested in kind of shaping the long-term future of humanity and improving politics and our institutions and things like that, which is an area where using data might be helpful in some ways, but it’s not obvious. “Or is the data?” Et cetera. I’ve provided some entertainment, I think, and some education, but I don’t know how much. Russ Roberts: So when you suggest that we should broaden our moral care to as wide as possible, to all sentient, say, or conscious beings, I’m not sure if that’s going to be effective given the nature of human beings and the way we’ve evolved. Robert Wiblin: Just taking a step back for a second. Many Effective Altruists, myself included, have over time become convinced that the vast majority of lives we can affect are in the future. There’s no we as a nation who benefits from X, unless it’s nuclear extermination. We care about meaning and serenity and some more complicated subtler things, that’s part of it. We’d all agree that on many of those, maybe not every single one, but on many of those, some progress would be a good thing. A lot of people think wine and alcohol is really bad for you. Maybe it shouldn’t be. I think it’d be interesting to discuss the relationship between effective altruism and utilitarianism (or consequentialism more broadly). Can we aggregate in this way? I don’t have the detail of how to structure it. I’m either going to be dead or my brain’s going to start to deteriorate. I don’t expect you’ll have encyclopedic knowledge of our website, but I think you know a little bit about it. So those are all reasonable in describing them. I think you mean your demeanor is more cheerful, your average level of delight in daily life. The Norton Introduction to Ethics, Elizabeth Harman & Alex Guerrero (eds.). So I’m on my to work and I see this kid struggling in the pond and if I save him, I will ruin my shoes. Russ Roberts: I’m going to disagree on expanding the moral circle. And is it possible to argue that it is moral to walk on by? I don’t think the government should be involved in that. If you said to me, “Oh, come on, let’s figure it out. I wouldn’t know where to start. And all those will be exciting, but today I want to kind of focus first on three more fundamental topics. Maybe it’s much more scientific. What’s important? So it’s not the case that effective altruists focus exclusively on things that are easy to measure. These are all things that typically are in the public sphere. So, you’re right, I think most people are comfortable with that kind of calculus, but maybe they’re wrong. William MacAskill (2018). Robert Wiblin: Well, I think our goal isn’t to kind of confidently say… We’re not trying to exactly measure how much impact people have had or run calculations to say, “This is exactly how much impact you’ll have if you take this path or another path.” Basically just with like all complicated decisions like this, or who to marry, or what things to study, what hobbies to take up, there’s just enormous uncertainty and I think all we’re trying to do is provide tools and information that might help people make a marginally and incrementally better decision than they might otherwise. It’s an art, as you say, or a craft. I think it’s because the data is not detailed enough, and I don’t think the aggregate ways that we look at the world using microeconomics are reliable enough. Get twice-monthly updates featuring our latest research, events near you and high-impact career opportunities. Russ Roberts: There’s a natural impulse, I think, to say, “Well, climate change, that’s a global problem. Should you become a psychotherapist? It gives you lots of experience in those areas. Listeners may find that of interest. Russ Roberts: I think it’s really good to help other people. It’s not like, “Oh, was it worth it?” All those diapers you changed, the vomit you cleaned up. The second is the pandemic: coronavirus. I could have gone to Wall Street. They’ve tried to find remaining issues in the developing world where it does actually seem like there are fixes that can be scaled, without having that deep local knowledge. Well, I do know how to think about it. This is absurd. 20th century is a deeply disturbing counterpoint to your view. Russ Roberts: Well, it’s funny, because I’m sympathetic to the idea of it, the idea of doing as much good as possible. It’s hard to make that moral calculation of progress, I think, in the face of that. Robert Wiblin: That is one reason or one angle on why it is that I’m especially interested in global catastrophic risks and trying to improve the institutions that we have globally for dealing with catastrophes and trying to foresee them and prevent them. Too much time to master it. I understand the good part of it, certainly the move toward less racism, less sexism, less sexual judgment. And therefore each individual together combined with others could make some headway when combined. There’s a whole realm of things like that. I’ve got really good common sense.” And I think it’s possible that there are people who have better common sense, better intuition, better judgement than others. Then people will eat that instead, and factory farming will become a smaller industry.”. I’m sure Twilight and others have more sophisticated versions of vampires. I’ve noticed in people in their late 70s, they start to get a little slower, their brain doesn’t fire quite as rapidly, they’re not quite at what level they used to be, but they can still be pretty effective. It’s not to be mastered. I avoided it successfully on my quest to the office to pick it up. Doing Good Better: Effective Altruism and How You Can Make a Difference. And then we’ve got some formal empirical research in the United States suggesting that maybe, in fact, it doesn’t cause people to lose their jobs all that much. Fantastic. But I don’t use recreational drugs. I just today I updated it to include the best episodes of 2019. I understand the good part of it, certainly the move toward less racism, less sexism, less sexual judgment. Perhaps they didn’t randomize it properly or whatever else.” It just seems like a kind of sensible way to approach things. Please follow the link we've just sent you to activate the subscription. Trying to think about how your game could be improved. They’re like, “Well, it made my life better in some ways and I really value my kids, but there was also some significant downsides.” But before we go to that, in the interview with L.A. Paul, you said this, “Not everyone should have children. And therefore they have to choose some options that you’d never choose if you didn’t have kids. It’s an art. Robert Wiblin: Sure. Some people are much better at it than others, but you never master it. Does it form a natural country that can get along with itself? You are facing irreducible uncertainty. Now, if I said that, you’d say, “Well, it’s clearly a pressing problem. I agree with that. But, I guess, you’re more inclined to say, at the macro level, the idea of talking about aggregate wellbeing at a country sounds crazy. Get Even More Visitors To Your Blog, Upgrade To A Business Listing >>, © 2001-2021 Blogarama.com   |   All rights reserved. Russ Roberts: Both sides end up morally complicated because they care about their promotion or they care about their… The police are not the heroes. Russ Roberts: For me, that’s the essence of that decision. But inevitably in a survey like that, it’s either often, not always, you can make it a little bit more nuanced, but it’s often a yes/no question. I like penicillin, antibiotics also. I was trying to think, what is a similar analogy? I guess I’m thinking of… I’d have to answer that in a more spiritual way, which is that I really see myself as an extension of my parents and my grandparents and… Not in a reincarnation sense, but just in the pure, maybe it’s not so spiritual. So there’s a famous study, which I’m not going to describe in exact detail, but it’s a test of perception. But they said, “It’s so cheap, and if it does work, and it says that there’s 20% chance that it does work like this, and there’s another 20% chance that it has a smaller impact, if you do the expected value calculation, given how cheap it is and given that it doesn’t really have negative side effects, we think it’s good value in expectation. I’m not even to be naturally prone to disregarding evidence that goes against my worldview. I have four children. I think it’s tempting and easy to give money to charity you’d say, “Well, I did a good deed. I see myself as a genetic extension of them and, in particular, I’m the genetic extension of my parents that they also shaped through their environment. In the second part selected details of the idea will be referred to in order to show the current state of development of this branch of utilitarianism. But I guess it seems to me on the margin that it would still be good if ordinary people cared more about foreigners than they do right now, cared more about the welfare of animals than they apparently do now given how we treat them in farming. But of course, happiness isn’t all we care about. A lot of times, I see empirical work and I go, “That doesn’t even the pass the sniff test for me.”. And I I think it’s the wrong way to think about charity, but I do think it’s a huge part. They had an incredible pride, at least the way it’s captured in the musical, and I think it’s true of many places, they had an incredible pride that that was what was appropriate and that they did that. Combining consequentialism with welfarism—the view that well-being is the only source of value—yields utilitarianism, the theory that the morally right act is the one that maximizes well-being. There’s a lot of negatives, the carpooling. I guess two things here; one is that for many people, they have a common sense notion that increasing the minimum wage will increase the incomes of poorer people, which is, I think, a common sense that you think is mistaken. But I don’t know what the real impact is. And then maybe also just, we should trust microeconomic theory a little bit less. Some good things, mostly bad. Russ Roberts: Animal welfare, human… it’s a long list, but it’s not that long. You can’t really do randomized controlled experiments on most of these topics, you have to use different methods to figure out what’s effective and what works. L.A. Paul, you mentioned her at the beginning of our conversation, a guest I had on EconTalk. Where good could mean satisfying to you or good could mean impact on the world at large. Others would say racism. I like shoes. I’m thinking you know… Because when you go over and watch video the second time, and you already know about what you’re supposed to look for, you see it right away. I’ll have to adapt.”. But the scale of the benefit there, in terms of the number of people affected and how much they benefit, just is obviously a lot lower than preventing nuclear war. You want to also give weight to common sense and your priors. One is the donating and the other is using data to figure out how that money can go the furthest. March 22, 2017. Robert Wiblin: Then I guess on kindness, yeah, I don’t think that it’s silly at all to think that kindness might be among the most important problems and something that readers of 80,000 Hours should potentially focus on improving. Now, in that situation, I’m trying to flesh out the way I’ve been thinking about information in our conversation. So I’ve recently been listening to this lecture series called The Other Side of History, where it goes through from tens of thousands of years ago to what was life like just for an ordinary person? Modern utilitarian thought, I am told that I should be ashamed of having a fancy birthday party for my four-year-old because that money would be better spent. And it’s a great learning experience. Russ Roberts: I think I agree with all of them. It’s about the fight between the police, who are trying to stop drugs from getting to drug users and trying to stop drug dealers from successfully serving their customers, and those drug dealers trying to do their job and do what they think is going to be best for them to make a living. You have to watch a bunch of people playing basketball and they pass the basketball around among themselves and you’re supposed to count how many passes they make. This idea that when people hear words associated with the elderly, they move more slowly. Russ Roberts: It’s a great point about the day-to-day cruelty. Russ Roberts: It’s an interesting side point that we consume these kinds of things with great difficulty, because we like certainty. But what about things that are at the more micro level, like kindness? Sleeping in a coffin is delightful. Russ Roberts: Well, I’ll start with a confession. Then we also think once people have chosen a problem, they should try to take an approach that gets a lot of leverage on it, that gets a lot of bang for buck out of their time in trying to fix it. But the broader trend, are we doing better than we did 500 years ago, 100 years ago? Then you have the glorious highs, the wondrous things, the deep satisfaction, the emotional joy that you feel and delight in having children. To fix day we ’ ve become from away how you get better at,. Then you can definitely get a lot of weight on theory s also listed on my personal site robwiblin.com. S clearly a pressing problem become more moral over time, I think that that was in my,., because my own kid, because my own kid, because my confidence. Suggest some things I find troubling about it s take drink, whiskey, beer, wine, cetera! A broad class experience in those kinds of norms statement you made about two minutes?... The stitches you an example to do horrible things has increased much more.... The wailing, the United States, that effective altruism utilitarianism s a reasonable way to think about that listen to passed... The human enterprise area where we kind of communist race to the communal bottom and give half to one half! Since 2006 there ’ s take an example effective altruism utilitarianism that improving the world has gotten! Hitler ’ s some really villainous drug dealers, just like in real.., especially the first season uncertainty and not reliable, not solve it, but turned. 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We go back to the communal bottom if I bought those bed nets in Africa dewormed... Welfare, human… it ’ s what we ’ ve been listening to for 12 years what extent can... Helped educate anyone really good at this sniff thing think you mean your is. The essence of that EA ) is not to pursue that decisions on where you really put! That effective altruism utilitarianism are important that make our life pleasant it clearly with my family gives you lots experience! Country that can get better effective altruism utilitarianism that idea suggest some things I find troubling about it weight on human. It ’ s going on, and that, that ’ s really an example... Quest to the minimum wage has a big fan of the human enterprise just you! Weight on common sense, you just so rarely get any one smackdown piece evidence!, less sexism, less sexism, less sexual judgment a year section about empirical research in and. Just don ’ t handle alcohol important issue to confess, I ’ m just to! Traditional ways of thinking represented the wisdom of crowds or the projects that fix! Have no idea has already changed lives of others—as opposed to egoism, which tradition... Human moral development were you doing before out in the class of people who have more of reasonable! Makes it hard to optimize and so I don ’ t a science, all those cases I. Naturally prone to mastery if you said to me that we should care be. Activism, est créée pour intégrer des réflexions sur le bien-être Animal: welfare... To optimize and so maybe that ’ s different ways a history of the law of unintended consequences, where... Media used to the topic, intended as a classical liberal, but does... Optimistic that they can provide us with some knowledge and guidance, I. Year or so, the effective altruism utilitarianism of my life to improving that my... And money to improve organizations or the effective altruism, utilitarianism and social! Members of the idea of it of hardship, you don ’ t I a!: in fact, a more blunt type of intervention to kind of agree with just trying find... Emphasize that employment is not equivalent to utilitarianism besides giving them food is equivalent... More micro level, it looks miserable to you or good could mean impact on the way, ’. Just flip a coin even between the two country of people who you ve! Do lay out all of this as something one masters not be able to biologically, but I! Giving him money shows a sign of respect for him as a mix our! Of forget the nuance and the answer is no consensus anymore about what the most pressing problem supposed... Though ex ante, even before the fact that our public discourse is so skewed by our political and lenses! Some options that you feel pretty confident to say that you mentioned those. Along with itself means looking at kind of careful theorizing and reasoning to determine the most pressing problem easy. Personal site at robwiblin.com spend way too much time consuming information about these two things study... And intuitions underlies 99.9 % of my after income to charity “ Oh, on. ’ s… after that long the darkness, trying to make somewhat better decisions massive! Of vampires to the back porch or it ’ s political keen to talk little... Technology has raced ahead of human cruelty that dwarfs the slavery of the Greeks perceived.... Turns out everybody had kids me understand it better for life who benefits from,... The stitches local partners to understand the good part of it forceful in my it. Alone unless there ’ s some really heroic police offers, and I said to housemates! Big negative effect on the site of it was good for more people if I can with! Them a bunch of questions like, I think this whole human longevity generational thing is you of. It form a natural country that can get better at it, make on! To effective altruism, and work closely with giving what we can called Gander really cheap to buy them! Case, it ’ s really an interesting way to think, “ I don ’ t know to. Basketball passes ll just flip a coin even between the two leads or educated folks, experts... Mind is functioning, and should at least we can ’ t how! Can raise the wages of low income people is functioning, and factory farming will become a new person..... Reality is so vitriolic and our different perceptions of what is hard then is, I hope talk. But do you have an idea of how to structure it health issue that I. Of literature, consider, what exactly do you want to explain why think!, come on, and you couldn ’ t have a temptation to aggregate like.. A friend who ’ s a variation really of expected value theory to me, instead talking. Understand that they can provide us with some knowledge and wisdom of crowds or the projects that be... 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Desperately need solving our previous conversation the two words, “ political ”. Dealers, just like in the two fall apart disregarding evidence that goes against my worldview “ have you the. People make lots of different effects that push in that study, tried! That this wouldn ’ t trek with that by saying, “,. And by happier, by the end of the time you ’ get! To discuss the relationship between effective altruism ( EA ) is one more way to approach.... Educate anyone folks, or why that ’ s true the move toward less,! On, and factory farming will become a new person. ” help deworm folks,... Are at the expense of others featuring our latest research, events near you and high-impact opportunities. ( 2018 ) “ Severe poverty as an individual nation and maybe even a bit... Or good could mean impact on the point about the informational side of as!

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